Ethicists Argue in Favor of ‘After-Birth Abortions‘ as Newborns ’Are Not Persons’
- Posted on February 27, 2012 at 3:38pm by Liz Klimas
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Two ethicists working with Australian universities argue in the latest online edition of the Journal of Medical Ethics that if abortion of a fetus is allowable, so to should be the termination of a newborn.
Alberto Giubilini with Monash University in Melbourne and Francesca Minerva at the Centre for Applied Philosophy and Public Ethics at the University of Melbourne write that in “circumstances occur[ing] after birth such that they would have justified abortion, what we call after-birth abortion should be permissible.”
The two are quick to note that they prefer the term “after-birth abortion“ as opposed to ”infanticide.” Why? Because it “[emphasizes] that the moral status of the individual killed is comparable with that of a fetus (on which ‘abortions’ in the traditional sense are performed) rather than to that of a child.” The authors also do not agree with the term euthanasia for this practice as the best interest of the person who would be killed is not necessarily the primary reason his or her life is being terminated. In other words, it may be in the parents’ best interest to terminate the life, not the newborns.
The circumstances, the authors state, where after-birth abortion should be considered acceptable include instances where the newborn would be putting the well-being of the family at risk, even if it had the potential for an “acceptable” life. The authors cite Downs Syndrome as an example, stating that while the quality of life of individuals with Downs is often reported as happy, “such children might be an unbearable burden on the family and on society as a whole, when the state economically provides for their care.”
This means a newborn whose family (or society) that could be socially, economically or psychologically burdened or damaged by the newborn should have the ability to seek out an after-birth abortion. They state that after-birth abortions are not preferable over early-term abortions of fetuses but should circumstances change with the family or the fetus in the womb, then they advocate that this option should be made available.
The authors go on to state that the moral status of a newborn is equivalent to a fetus in that it cannot be considered a person in the “morally relevant sense.” On this point, the authors write:
Both a fetus and a newborn certainly are human beings and potential persons, but neither is a ‘person’ in the sense of ‘subject of a moral right to life’. We take ‘person’ to mean an individual who is capable of attributing to her own existence some (at least) basic value such that being deprived of this existence represents a loss to her.
[...]
Merely being human is not in itself a reason for ascribing someone a right to life. Indeed, many humans are not considered subjects of a right to life: spare embryos where research on embryo stem cells is permitted, fetuses where abortion is permitted, criminals where capital punishment is legal.
Giubilini and Minerva believe that being able to understand the value of a different situation, which often depends on mental development, determines personhood. For example, being able to tell the difference between an undesirable situation and a desirable one. They note that fetuses and newborns are “potential persons.” The authors do acknowledge that a mother, who they cite as an example of a true person, can attribute “subjective” moral rights to the fetus or newborn, but they state this is only a projected moral status.
The authors counter the argument that these “potential persons” have the right to reach that potential by stating it is “over-ridden by the interests of actual people (parents, family, society) to pursue their own well-being because, as we have just argued, merely potential people cannot be harmed by not being brought into existence.”
And what about adoption? Giubilini and Minerva write that, as for the mother putting the child up for adoption, her emotional state should be considered as a trumping right. For instance, if she were to “suffer psychological distress” from giving up her child to someone else — they state that natural mothers can dream their child will return to them — then after-birth abortion should be considered an allowable alternative.
The authors do not tackle the issue of what age an infant would be considered a person.
The National Catholic Register thinks that these authors are right — once you accept their ideas on personhood. The Register states that the argument made by the ethicists is almost pro-life in that it “highlights the absurdity of the pro-abortion argument”:
The second we allow ourselves to become the arbiters of who is human and who isn’t, this is the calamitous yet inevitable end. Once you say all human life is not sacred, the rest is just drawing random lines in the sand.
First Things, a publication of the The Institute on Religion and Public Life, notes that while this article doesn’t mean the law could — or would — allow after-birth abortions in future medical procedures, arguments such as “the right to dehydrate the persistently unconscious” began in much the same way in bioethics journals.
It is sad that such people who argue Pro Infanticide (Abortions) are living breathing NON-Aborted fetus's.
Through out time Cultures, Nations, Tribes, Cults have practiced forms of Infanticide, whether it be Aztec or other Sacrifices to their Idol gods, or just what their society chooses at the time to be UN-Desirables, or Sub Human. So with weak excuses they allow death, promote murder of human life.
Nazi Germany did murder all un-desirables, from handicap people of all ages, to old or injured, or Wrong birth nationality, any reason to create the perfect ultimate race of humans. Such eugenics is Evil, and taught from ONE source only. Lucifer the fallen one even the Devil, Satan and all the other names he is known by.
In the Holy Scriptures it teaches he was Cast from Heaven for Rebellion against God his Father, those who followed him also were cast out, sent to Earth with the Punishment (or one of them) Never to receive a Physical Human Body. Thus one of his number 1 goals is to destroy, control, all of the Human race any way he can to get even or back at his Heavenly Father and his plan for humanities Eternal progression.
So those who seek to make excuses for such Evil acts are but following the Master of all Evil and Lies - Lucifer. Simple as that.
I suggest all look deep into your heart and if you have a soul, any ethics or morals of civility. Pray and learn who God your Father in Heaven is, a Loving God. And learn to gain a testimony of him, then seek to live your lives as Jesus Christ did by Example, and it will only help others of humanity through out the World.
May some day this great evil stop.
Stephen Huls.
Merattor
Posted on February 24, 2012 at 7:06pm To all the liberal Jews…a prophecy,The next time they come for the Jews,
To torment them out of existence,
You will be as blind in the role of the suffering victim
As you are now in the role of enabling them.
There is a greater tragedy in your blindness
Than anything they could ever do.
For there are no anti-semites quite as dangerous
As rich American liberal Jews.
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SGT Rock
Posted on February 24, 2012 at 10:27am Great video, all the smartypants people will not get it though. The longer one stays in college the dumber they become, politically speaking. I hope this work of art can truly shed Gods light on the ignorant that say the Holocaust is a lie, what fools. I’m not Jewish but I will not stand by and watch this happen again. As the Jewish people say, “Never Again”. As per the posts about the Jews being persecuted after WW3, I think that Isreal is ground zero and the Isrealies know it. May God cloak his people in safety and guide their actions as He sees fit. The rest of us are on the ride of our lives, pick a side and cowboy up.Report Post »
Natsdaughter
Posted on February 23, 2012 at 1:25pm Nice video but honestly, I’m kinda tired of seeing my fellow Jews being victimized. Perhaps the last few minutes of this video could have shown the importance of the 2nd Amendment and the need for Jews to arm ourselves. Shamefully, many of my fellow Jews are so lost in liberalism/socialism but there are still some of us who are not hostages to the left and who LOVE and CHERISH freedom. We somehow need to get the message out that Never Again means NEVER AGAIN!!!!Report Post »
deano24
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 11:08pm they did the same thing when they made the movie “The Boy in the Striped Pajamas” a sad story., plus they had Anne Frank.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hiding_Place_%28biography%29
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flatbroke
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 5:57pm Very moving Vid, i welled up in the middle.The Jews have nothing to be ashamed of, and LHM on the folks who try to wipe them out. remember what happened to Germany after WW2, they got split in 1/2 between the west, and commies for 40 years, and the nazis were oblerated.Report Post »
bombshelterbob
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 3:03pm That was cool. It is a sin to not honor GOD’S Chosen people—and protect them.Report Post »
VicksVaporub
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 4:38pm When the Neocons get finished attacking Iran and causing WW3 everyone will blame Israel aka the Jews and the next Holocaust will begin and every religious Jew knows this.Report Post »
Lucy Larue
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 5:29pm @VICKSVAPORUB,You do realize what an ass you are. Non?
Why do you post in ignorance?! Why?!
You Vicks are like the DITTOS that teachers passed out back in the day. You are a sheep. You have nothing original to say. You embrace PROGRESSIVE groupthink.
It’s OKAY for you though Vicks. You’re EXACTLY the kind of person that our President Dunham banks on for his “FOUR MORE YEARS”.
Do you even know what a NEOCON is? I doubt it.
Again….,you’re an ass.
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sweetnsalty
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 2:44pm I bet Soros would love this video, he would probably smile and say Oh this brings back such lovely memories,” as he said That was the best time of my life.”Report Post »
techengineer11
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 6:39pm I imagine a lot of people would say the ages of 16-25 were the best days of their lives.. Esepcailly if they are over 70.Report Post »
SGT Rock
Posted on February 24, 2012 at 10:22am I agree with you, what monster could watch his people suffering and being butchered and say all he learned about it was to become a power mad egomaniac. Why does the world listen to this man or should I say beast, oops. Guess George is gonna put me on the naughty list.Report Post »
thegreatcarnac
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 2:21pm I stand with Israel but I am practical. When I see videos like that coming out and if we see more pro-Israeli material on the screens….then we know…war is coming again to the Middle east.Report Post »
midwesthippie
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 1:42pm …“blitzkrieg bop” by the ramones was probably the first…and yes my Jewish friends would laugh. incredible video…the story of the Jews is tremendous.Report Post »
abbygirl1994
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 12:43pm Beautiful.. I stand with Israel and the Jewish people! We must never let these atrocities happen again!Report Post »
techengineer11
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 1:47pm Far more Germans and Russians died in WW2 then Jews. Are you not concerned for them?For the record how many Germans died? Russian? Oh you don’t know do you? hmmm That’s interesting. But you know how many supposedly died in this Holocaust? Even though the facts continually change?
The Jews have been milking the world long enough through their Holcocaust propaganda.. It’s time to get over it move on and stop perpetuating the lies.
How many Russians were hunted down and tried for War crimes? hmmm Interesting.
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one.dakine.howlie
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 3:09pm TechEngineer you’re either a fool or purposely trying to deceive with your comments. Let‘s hope it’s the former.Between 1 and 3 million German citizens died in WWII. Another 5.5 million of their military servicemen died as well.
Between 12 and 14.5 million Soviet citizens died in WWII. Another 8-10 million of their military servicemen died.
Of the 9 million Jews in Germany, 2/3 were murdered leaving the death toll at around 6 million.
While you are correct in saying that Germany and the Soviet Union together had more casualties than the Jews there’s very little significance in that comparison. First of all many of the German and Soviet Union civilian casualties came from the fact that both their governments wouldn’t let citizens leave areas of hostility. They were forced to stay and fight alongside their respective military. Many of them only having mere farm tools to fight with. The Soviet Union was especially known for their brutal tactic of killing any citizen or military serviceman who tried retreating to safer locations.
Now lets look at the Jewish people of that time. They were rounded up by the very government who had vowed to protect them, locked up in cattle cars where many suffocated to death, then dumped off in camps to be slaughtered by the thousands each day. Men, women, and children given a death sentence for merely practicing their religion of choice. And that was just the few years of WWII. Try looking at their bloodier history be
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josh345
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 11:24am @TECHENGINEER11: “Mr. Spielberg or Weinstien needs to make you a movie doesn’t he so that you may understand? Why won’t they make a movie detailing the horrors that took place in the former Soviet Union JP4JOY? Are they hiding something? Afraid? I‘m of the opinion that our Chosen really don’t want the microscope focused on what happened in 20th century Russia and I think I know why.”Are you really suggesting that Stalin was Jewish? Yes, Stalin had Jewish ancestry, but he was definitely not Jewish. Many Jews suffered under Soviet Russia. Also, Stalin re-established the Moscow Patriarchate. Stalin also was enraged when his oldest son, who was Jewish, wanted to marry a Jew, and caused his son to shoot himself. Stalin was definitely NOT Jewish. Perhaps a reason why Spielberg hasn‘t made movies about Stalin is because Spielberg isn’t Russian. Spielberg has a connection to the Jews, so he makes movies about them, while Russian filmmakers can make movies about Russians.
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techengineer11
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 6:41pm Tried several times to respond but the moderator obviously didn’t like my post..Report Post »
marthasusan40
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 10:23am This is beautiful…Report Post »
The_Jerk
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 10:06am Norman Finkelstein was spot on with his, “The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering.”Since WWII, the world, more specifically the western world, has been awash in a never ending and quite complex media barrage, by Jews, in regards to the holocaust. Museums, films, videos, articles, books… all with the specific purpose to exploit the memory of the Nazi Holocaust for political and financial gain, as well as to further the interests of Israel. This ethnic centered, ethnic specific, wedge, becomes all the more disgusting when one realizes that over 40 million people suffered and died.
I see no end to this ethnic specific propaganda, since Jews admittedly have an asymmetric influence on what the western culture perceives as reality: http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-stein19-2008dec19,0,4676183.column
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techengineer11
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 10:24am Jerk: Thanks for your uncompromising and persistent service to our country. You are a true Patriot in the purest sense. We must fight their lies and propaganda on all fronts or before you know it American’s will be thrown in Jail like Europeans for simply questioning their Holocaust industry.Look I use to hate people that would tell me the truth or tell me things that went against the way I had been taught or programmed. It’s hard to confront the truth sometimes. We just have to keep pushing out the facts.
On another note you post a lot. It appears that you are not censored. I bet only 30-40% of my post ever see the light of day.
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jcizarter
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 10:33am My Jewish relatives will never forget, you may want them to, but they won’t.Report Post »
welloddyfriggindah
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 10:43am Wow. I recognize and respect your right to speak your mind. I don’t pretend to know what is in your heart, or the hearts of those who are moved to produce a piece to make their thoughts or feelings known. Especially not whole groups, religions, ethnicities.Report Post »
The_Jerk
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 10:53am No one has been censored, or unjustly punished, more than Norman Finkelstein. He found out firsthand that the truth can have very few friends and a whole lot of enemies. He’s a patriot and a man that we should all admire. He speaks truth to the powerful and he has the wounds to prove it.Juxtapose Finkelstein to the propagandist Alan Dershowitz, who for years has hid behind Harvard. Both are intellectually astute men. Both are well educated. Both are well written. Both are well traveled. Both are professors. One is ostracized by an academic society that should invite debate and entertain all points of view. The other elevated and honored for defending the conventional wisdom from truth.
I always feel sad when I think of Norman Finkelstein, a great man treated with such contempt.
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tzion
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 1:05pm @JerkMaybe you should also condemn the violence against David Horowitz then. He often needs a security detail just to be able to speak freely at most colleges. Even then he is frequently interrupted and not permitted to speak plainly.
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the wireworker
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 4:17pm norman finkelstein is a self hating jew and a self described communist but don’t hold that against him he only supports hamas and hezbollahReport Post »
JQCitizen
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 9:54am Very beautifully, and tastefully done video, and the music is lovely, too! So tastefully done that I can use it in conjuction with some good books to introduce my young grandchildren to the concept of the idea of people being persecuted and discriminated against.Report Post »
MOLLYPITCHER
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 10:19am @JQCITIZENThats a good idea. I think I’ll use this for my kids. Such a horrible time in history that is sometimes very hard to read about, but we have to remember it and we have to teach it so that it is not forgotten. I often find in reading, that there was some atrocity that I hadn’t thought of. Those things are so awful that my mind doesn’t go there. I believe that it is so important for to tell children about this, while sparing them many of the details. This video is a good thing to start with.
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rose-ellen
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 11:09am that the european holocaust is now used to support zionist land grabs and occupation of arab palestinians and a racist state is the current crime happening vis a vis the european jews.i stand with the displaced and occupied arab palestinians-israel should go legal and return to the 67borders .Gulls!Report Post »
tzion
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 1:10pm RoseWhy did the Zionist movement begin? The Holocaust is just one case in hundreds of years of Jewish persecution. And once again, there is no such thing as a “67 border”. Borders are boundaries agreed upon by sovereign states and recognized by both sides. The Arabs you support have never recognized the “67 borders”. After 1967, the Arabs declared that they wouldn’t recognize Israel or make peace with her. The 1948 armistice line was nonbinding.
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FoxholeAtheist
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 9:40am Quit baptizing dead jews into the mormon church!Report Post »
MOLLYPITCHER
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 10:21am I’m not a Mormon, but I do know that you can’t baptize someone who is already dead. What do you think they’re doing? Taking the dead bodies and dunking them? Give me a break, and stop trolling.Report Post »
marvel
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 11:04am Though he is attempting to mock our religion, FoxholeAtheist is talking about our practice of vicarious baptism. It is the main reason we do family history work. We seek out the names of our kindred dead and are baptized on their behalf in our temples. We do this because we believe that the spirits of the dead continue to live after departing this life, and that missionary work continues in the spirit world. Because they no longer have their bodies, then cannot be baptized unless one of us (who are yet alive) stands as proxy on their behalf, should they accept the gospel message. Since we do not know who has and who has not accepted the gospel in the spirit world, we try to do the work for everyone. It does not mean that we consider them “Mormons” automatically. It means that should they choose it, the baptism would become effective, as if they had done it themselves while still in mortality. (see 1 Peter 3:18-22, and 1 Cor. 15:29)Report Post »
MOLLYPITCHER
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 11:50am @MARVELI did not know that. So I learned something about Mormonism today. Thank you for letting me know.
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marvel
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 2:37pm @MOLLYPITCHERMy pleasure. This subject has been particularly controversial when it comes to Jewish Holocaust victims. Over the years, some latter-day saints motivated by compassion towards holocaust victims have specifically sought out their names and performed those vicarious baptisms on their behalf. This practice being a “labor of love” from our perspective – giving folks an opportunity to be baptized after the opportunity to do it themselves was taken away when they were murdered. However, many in the Jewish community viewed our practice as offensive, and latter-day saints have been asked to stop doing those ordinances without permission of nearest living survivors. Though, I think when it is understood that we do not believe that the ordinances are effective unless those deceased spirits choose to accept them, that it really shouldn’t be offensive.
This doctrine answers the question, “If baptism is necessary, as Jesus and the Apostles taught, what about those who die without ever having a chance to accept the gospel or be baptized?”. The answer, according to Mormonism, as that there is still an opportunity before the resurrection for those individuals to learn about and accept the gospel, and have their baptisms performed on their behalf by us who are still alive.
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JP4JOY
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 9:39am IMHO there is no music or modern video that can accurately portray the horror and depravity of genocide. God’s chosen people have been the ones man has persecuted throughout history. Of course there are others, Cambodians (half of the population), chinese dissidents,Stalin’s enemies, the Kurds in Iraq etc. These events are perpetrated by insane leaders who scare their populations into becoming complicit lest they too are persecuted. Standing up against EVIL is harder than most people can imagine. Most of us go along to get along until it’s too late. It’s the human condition.Report Post »
techengineer11
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 10:18am JP4JOYPosted on February 22, 2012 at 9:39am
IMHO there is no music or modern video that can accurately portray the horror and depravity of genocide. God’s chosen people have been the ones man has persecuted throughout history
I thought Mao killed up to 80 million Chinese? We have the Holodomor where 8-10 million Christians were starved to death during a time of peace by the Jewish Marxist in Moscow. You’re asertion is simply not true. It appears that God’s unchosen have been far more abused and usually by his Chosen.
Mr. Spielberg or Weinstien needs to make you a movie doesn’t he so that you may understand? Why won’t they make a movie detailing the horrors that took place in the former Soviet Union JP4JOY? Are they hiding something? Afraid? I‘m of the opinion that our Chosen really don’t want the microscope focused on what happened in 20th century Russia and I think I know why.
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marvel
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 11:32am @techengineer11Joseph Stalin was from a Georgian Orthodox background, not a Jew, and was responsible for killing millions of his own people including Jews.
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techengineer11
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 11:46am marvelPosted on February 22, 2012 at 11:32am
@techengineer11
Joseph Stalin was from a Georgian Orthodox background, not a Jew, and was responsible for killing millions of his own people including Jews.
What Stalin was is debatable. I know that the mainstream Media wants to label him Orthodox because it fits their agenda. He may have been but I doubt it. Regardelss the upper echelon of Soviet power from 1917-1953 was almost 100% Jewish Stalin withstanding. Yes Stalin killed Jews toward the end of his life. Would one suggest that person of a particluar ethnicity couldn’t kill the very same people? I hear that a lot. Very strange logic.
It was the NKVD that carried out most of the atrocities in Russia including both the Katyn Massacre and the Holodomor and we all know how Jews flock to security agencies just like they have in America. For example consider:
Carl Levin: Head of Senate Armed Services Committee. Coauthor and sponsor of the NDAA 1687 civilian detainment law just recently passed.
Michael Chertoff: United States Secretary of Homeland Security co-author of the USA PATRIOT Act and founder of the Chertoff Group which represents manufacturers of the H.S. scanners.
Joe Liberman: Chairman of the Senate Homeland Security Committee.
Diane Fienstien: Head of Senate Intelligence committee.
Daniel Benjiman: Head of Counter Terrorism.
Leon Panetta: Sec of Defense.
Debbie Wasserman Schultz: Head of DNC
Research it.
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tzion
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 1:25pm @TechYour comments make it clear that you don’t believe that Jews should be allowed to hold any position of authority. Joe Lieberman is an elected Senator. Are you saying Jews shouldn’t be allowed to run?
And as for Russia, every oppressed group was represented in the uprising. Prior to the Bolsheviks there existed a privileged class in Russia. The Bolshevik revolution, like the French, Chinese, Egyptian etc., instead of bringing about a change in societal structure, simply brought about a change in who was in charge. There were Jews who supported the French Revolution and Napoleon because French Jews were emancipated for the first time. A small handful of Jews being Bolsheviks is comparable to only some Germans being Nazis. I, as a Jew, don’t blame Germans for the Holocaust yet you blame all Jews for the actions of Jewish Bolsheviks. That’s collectivism Tech. You know the kind you claim to hate. You bias and hypocrisy are without bounds it would seem.
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techengineer11
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 1:38pm tzion: Oh my point is rather simple and that is Marxism a creation of the Jew Karl Marx is overwhelmingly a Jewish phenomenon and it is without question the biggest evil on earth.Do I need say anymore? Unfortunately most Americans do not understand this. If I can help others see it then I’m doing a worthwhile deed.
As far as a your small percentage drivel again while Jews made up 2-3% of the Russian population something like 300 of 350 Commissars in the former Soviet state were Jewish. Do you dispute this fact or will you acknowledge it?
Do we have to start naming names? They are recorded you know.
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tzion
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 2:01pm @TechYes you should name names. List the individuals responsible. There are MILLIONS of Jews in the world and yet you condemn them all for the actions of a few HUNDRED. The reason Jews are overrepresented is because, even as low class citizens, Jews still valued education. How many non-Jewish Russians peasants were educated? Jews are predominately literate in almost every society they were a part of. That’s why they knew about Marx. They held many positions because there were few who could compete. And even 300 is small compared to how many Jews lived in Russia. Name the 300 and condemn them. You don’t see me condemning Germans.
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marvel
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 2:41pm Tech is just proving that Joseph Goebbels Nazi propaganda was quite effective in blinding the eyes of the people, and in justifying (in their own minds) their diabolical behavior, even today.Report Post »
tzion
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 2:46pm You know Tech, I would estimate that 95-100% of Nazis were German. All Germans must therefore be evil Nazis, right?Report Post »
techengineer11
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 3:18pm marvel:Goebels had a PhD. Why do you disgregard everything he said? The Germans were probably the most educated people on the earth in the 30s.. Do you think there were just entirely deceived by propaganda? Do you really think that?Do you believe every assertion the man made was false? How can you be so ridiculous? Take the assertions he made or anyone at that time and let’s analyze them.
lol
I bet if Beck says something it‘s the Gospel truth isn’t it? Even though he doesn’t even have a HS education does he? Certainly no college.
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marvel
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 4:08pm @techengineer11A degree in higher education does not necessarily make his propaganda correct, or even true. But, actually, no I don’t think that every assertion Goebbels made was false. Some things he said seemed alright. At least on one occasion, for example, Goebbels made a decent case against morality being enforced by government, if a people were to enjoy life (see “More Morality, Less Moralism”, 1934).
His assertions about Communism, and the Bolsheviks, on the other hand were false, and were designed to maintain antisemitism as the prime struggle of Germanic people. Regardless of the fact that it is dangerous to human freedom in it’s own right, Goebbels was successful in convincing the masses that Jews were behind Marxism – that it was the means by which Jews conspired to rule the world and destroy modern civilization (see “Communism with the Mask Off”, 1935). No wonder a whole people felt justified in their lethal persecution of the Jews, many who were their own countrymen, and were not involved in any “conspiracy”. He mixed common sense and some truth, with just enough lies to further the Nazi agenda. He was a master at propaganda, not truth or honesty.
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marvel
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 4:25pm @techengineer11And I don’t know what Beck has to do with this. I accept all truth, no matter what the source. However, it is simply not true that Jews by virtue of “their birth and their race” are part of an international conspiracy” against the Germanic people, as Goebbels often taught. However, it is most likely true that all Jews conspire against National Socialism, and like ideologies. But who would blame them at this point. I am also proudly against any ideology that calls for my destruction.
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techengineer11
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 6:58pm marvel: “His assertions about Communism, and the Bolsheviks, on the other hand were false, and were designed to maintain antisemitism as the prime struggle of Germanic people…. Goebbels was successful in convincing the masses that Jews were behind Marxism – that it was the means by which Jews conspired to rule the world and destroy modern civilization (see “Communism with the Mask Off”, 1935).”Well I have to agree with Goebbels on this point. I can’t deny the facts before my face. Before I was aware of the facts there was no greater supporter of Israel than the Jews than I. I had literally given thousands of dollars to the Nation of Israel through the Hagee ministry. I’ve studied these assertions in detail for the past 5-6 years and I can’t deny the strong correlations between Marxism and Jews and I was extremely biased against the supposition.
My goodness I wish I could. I wish it wasn’t so. If you would read “Behind Communism” by Frank Britton and point out the falsifications in it. Not only were they behind Bolshevism in Russia they were behind it in Germany. My god it was a movement of Jews that tried to overthrow Germany after WW1. They were the ones behind the Frankfurt School.
So you are saying unequivocal that you do not see a strong correlation between Marxism and Jews? I think it’s as highly correlated as Blacks and the Democrat Party. Do you deny that correlation as well?
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marvel
Posted on February 23, 2012 at 12:44am @techengineer11Blacks and the Democratic party? Are you kidding me? All they are are pawns in the Democratic party. The same white supremacy reigns in the Democratic party today as it did when the first Republican President took office. They have just figured out a way to keep blacks down and in slavery, while appearing to help them, simultaneously exploiting them for political purposes.
Allen West was right when he called the Democratic party a modern-day “plantation”.
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tzion
Posted on February 23, 2012 at 1:13am @TechCorrelation means very little. Maybe instead of saying “Jews are all Marxists” you should ask yourself why there are so many Marxist Jews. After all, I could point out how many antisemites were Christian but that wouldn’t be reason enough to hate Christians. The truth is that in Europe, unlike America, rights came from government and were not inherent to every person. The rulers and the upper classes would rule over the lower classes. Marxism was the first ideology to offer a way out for many of these people, only it still was built within a totalitarian system. Only in America was constitutional republicanism ever successful. Meanwhile, some Jews, who had been persecuted for being different for centuries, began to try and become more like everyone else. Only they were still treated as different in many cases. Hitler is a prime example: he didn’t discriminate between religious and secular Jews. This was particularly true in Russia and Eastern Europe (which is also where socialism took hold interestingly enough). These new secular Jews came to see those with money and power as the enemies. Since Jews are historically well educated, they came across the writings of Marx and were seduced by his ideas which they then spread. Since Jews are one of the few groups of low or middle class status to receive education, they naturally took center stage. But even then, it was still a minority of Jews involved.
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shogun459
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 9:28am “…due to their hostile climate, university campuses are among the first places Cecelia and Daniel hope to have “Rainbow in the Night” aired.”What about our University’s and Campuses makes them “hostile” to survivors of the Holocaust?
Could it be that the Professors and Staff of Universities are preaching anti-semitism?
Could it be that the supposed bastions of acceptance and tolerance are in fact a hotbed of intolerance for anything NOT Socialist?
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constitutionaldirective
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 9:18am Darn I thinking Ronnie James Dio… :(Report Post »
acovenantinblood
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 9:28am Me too! Miss that guy.Report Post »
DD313
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 9:10am I Remember Mad magazine alluding to something like this in their 1960′s parody of “Hogan’s Heroes.”Report Post »
shogun459
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 9:29am I have been to Dachau, it’s not funny.Report Post »
shogun459
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 9:29am I have been to Dachau it’s not funny.Report Post »
DD313
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 10:08am I have been to Dachau, too. If you saw the (Jewish edited) Mad magazine parody, it was making the very point that World War II was anything but funny, and that was fifty years ago. This video was quite powerful, by the way.Report Post »
The_Jerk
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 10:11am I’ve been there too, and it’s far past the time to stop with this ethnic specific propaganda. Millions of people suffered and lost loved ones. Seventy percent of the casualties during WWII were civilians.Report Post »
tzion
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 1:28pm @JerkThe history of the Holocaust is ethic based propaganda. To properly study the Holocaust is to understand that fact. The whole “Aryans first” and “Jews are evil” and all the other propaganda from that era are tied up with the very source of the Holocaust. To ignore that is to invite a repeat of history.
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tzion
Posted on February 22, 2012 at 1:32pm I’ve been to Auschwitz, Krakow, Warsaw, Majdanik, and numerous other places. There are things there even I didn’t know to expect. Did you know that at Majdanik there’s a bathtub INSIDE the crematorium because someone decided that the heat from the burning corpses was being wasted? So he used it for his bath water.Report Post »